Opinion vs. legality -- a rant

8 This is prompted by another thread in which a student was admonished for actively participating in patient care during surgery.

One member responded that it is illegal for unlicensed personnel to pass instruments, and was a patient safety issue.

Fact: Some states require certification for people who pass instruments in surgery (surgical technologists). But MANY states (mine included) require no license or certification whatsoever.

This member posted, ad nauseum, that this was illegal: "It NOT legal! Period! The unliscenced people present pose a risk to patient safety."

I understand that you are of the opinion that it is not in the best interest of the patient to have students participate in their care, but it is legal. It is not necessary for you to try and convince us that your opinion is the law for us to respect it as a valid opinion. Many of the other members of this forum are thrilled to have students who are enthusiastic enough to want to actively participate in patient care.

/rant
Great rant! Feel better? You are correct of course. I've had some postings bite me from behind, and learned the hard way that there's a flaw in allnurses.com. Posts don't show the nationality of the poster automatically. I've had people in Canada and Australia correct me in that something is done much different in their country. What might be a correct answer in my state or country is very wrong in another state or country. Think I'll suggest they include a flag or some other symbol with the poster's information so we can remember that when we post other countries may not realize that, for instance, everybody drives in the middle of the road in Lower Slobovia (a trauma nurses dream!). Thanks

Both myself and the other poster are in the US. Regardless, the poster implies that having students (medical students, nursing students, etc) participate in patient care is illegal. I can't imagine a state or country where that is true.

Quote from PetiteOpRNBoth myself and the other poster are in the US. Regardless, the poster implies that having students (medical students, nursing students, etc) participate in patient care is illegal. I can't imagine a state or country where that is true.

As a student I passed instruments during surgery - in fact it was encouraged. How else can one learn? Of course, I was supervised and the surgeon was quick to comment if it was the wrong instrument, just like he/she would with a licensed RN.

Quote from dthfytr Think I'll suggest they include a flag or some other symbol with the poster's information so we can remember that when we post other countries may not realize that, for instance, everybody drives in the middle of the road in Lower Slobovia (a trauma nurses dream!). Thanks

Quote from PetiteOpRNBoth myself and the other poster are in the US. Regardless, the poster implies that having students (medical students, nursing students, etc) participate in patient care is illegal. I can't imagine a state or country where that is true.

When I did my 5 week OR rotation, we all worked as scrub & scout nurses. I did actually query this (I got a withering answer and put-you-down looks though cos I was a mere student), & was told it is legal under the direction of an RN. Since there was a CN & CNS/CNC in the OR it is perfectly OK.

Quote from JolieThat poster did not limit herself to declaring the illegality of a student scrubbing in surgery. She went on to state that students were not legally allowed to participate in patient care of any type, and were only to observe. I'd love to know where that is the case, so I can avoid getting sick there. Imagine a newly licensed RN who has never touched a patient!

Quote from sirIWe have that now.Go to, "My Account". Scroll to, "Edit Personal Info". Then, scroll to "Country" and select a flag of your country.

Quote from sirIWe have that now.Go to, "My Account". Scroll to, "Edit Personal Info". Then, scroll to "Country" and select a flag of your country.

Quote from jjjoyI think some facilities' legal advisors may be so afraid of liability issues that they *do* discourage students from participating much and that *is* leading to newly licensed RNs with very limited hands-on patient care experience who have an enormous gap transitioning from student who can't do much more than observe to regular staff RN with the same job description, same level of responsibility as a nurse with years of experience.

dthfytr:"other countries may not realize that, for instance, everybody drives in the middle of the road in Lower Slobovia (a trauma nurses dream!)."Although I didn't live in Lower Slobovia, I lived pretty close. Your comment makes me glad that I lived part of a trauma nurses dream, and survived . Thanks for the chuckle.As to the OP--I wish I too, knew where the poster you refer to is from in the States. I cannot imagine any nursing school nor healthcare facility in ANY state in the U.S. that has students not allowing students to participate. How else can they learn? I guess I've broken the lawaccording to her more than once, both as a student and as faculty!!It sounds as though you are willing to have students learn alongside you. Thank you!